Hymir (Ymir) the Frost Giant Gigante, I - Hymir vs Ymir

In this case the "confusion" probably goes back to the profile as I entered it.

In my reference database I usually have Ýmir and Hymir as the same character, based on a common academic theory. For example: http://timothystephany.com/papers/Article11-MimirMyth.pdf

My crib notes say:

Ýmir, the primordial giant in Norse mythology, was probably cognate with the Indian god Yama, brother of Manu.

Hymir, called the father of Týr (Poetic Edda, Hymiskviða), belonged to the race of Jötunns. He was probably identical with Ýmir, the first ancestor of the Jötunns, gods and mankind.

Feel free to change it to your new, re-organized genealogy.

I am just asking this because you know more than Wikpedia and Google combined.

What i've read recently is that Ymir is the first giant: created by sparks of energy (The Force?), Buri is the first god: released from a block of ice by a cow (not mention of how Han Solo got turned into a popsicle) and Ashr was the first man: created from a tree by Odin and his bro's.

I ask because i notice that you mention Ýmir as the "first ancestor of the Jötunns, gods and mankind".

If Ymir and Hymir are not the same person they must be very closely related, as you say Ymir was the progenitor of all giants... and I think i read yesterday that Tyr is one of Odin's sons so does Hymir = Odin? Or is there no Hymir? Or is Tyr not Odin's son?

I am getting Tyred of this already :)

Apologies for all the bad puns.

I am enchanted that we are discussing in all seriousness how to most correctly enter the Frost Giants.

I can probably answer that, but give me some time to figure out how to keep it short. I did a lot of research in this area for my (never-finished) master's thesis. Most of the good stuff is buried in my notes, and those notes are based on scholarship that is now 30 or 40 years old.

I also have an academic bias here, which moves me away from a literal reading of the sources. And, my natural inclination is always to multiply the possibilities rather than focusing on a black-and-white answer.

I don't want to pull us off-task by yammering on and on about things that don't really matter here ;)

Well I enjoy your yammering, it doesn't help making the tree simpler but I do enjoy it.

Tyr is Odin's son in Prose Edda but Hymir's son in Poetic Edda. But Odin and Hymir are not likely to be the same. There is an old idea that Odin might be the same as Tyr, under the theory Tyr was called Guodan (the Good), which became Odin. Not likely.

Speaking in a historical context many experts believe Odin displaced Tyr as the supreme god of the Germanic people some time around the migration period. So, there is considerable confusion in the sources and that confusion is traceable to different and changing versions of the stories.

This is part of a larger theory about the Indo-European origin and analogs of the Norse myths. Judging from cognate names and stories, it's possible the original Indo-European ancestral cult centered around a story that Yama (Ymir) and Manu (Mannus) were twins. Manu killed Yama and created the world from his body. Manu was the first human, and Yama receives the souls of the dead.

But, according to Tacitus, the Germans worshiped Tuisto (twin? of Ymir?), whose son Mannus had three sons who were the ancestors of the three groups of Germanic tribes. So, maybe that was a later version.

There is also an idea that the Norse version preserves another Indo-European motif -- that there are three brothers who ruled sky, sea, and earth, who killed their father. Think of Zeus, Poseidon, and Hades, who killed their father Cronos.

In the Germanic version they were (perhaps) Tiwaz (Tyr, replaced by Odin), Fjörgyn (Njörd, replaced by Thor), and Ingwaz (Ingvi, replaced by Freyr). (Compare Adam of Bremen's account of the three main gods.)

And (again perhaps), they might have all shared the same sister / wife (perhaps Jörd, whom they created from the body of Ymir), as in the story where Frigg sleeps with Odin's brothers when he was gone (Ynglinga Saga).

Probably the most recent version of this type of analysis is Emily Lyle, who sees a primal goddess (Bestla), mother and mate of Tyr / Vé, Odin, and Njörd / Vili. In the younger generation she is Frigg, the mother of Loki (by Tyr), Ull (by Odin), and Frey (by Njörd). She is also mother of Baldr, Freyja, and Thor by all three fathers.

Based on this type of reading, Jacob Grimm (19th century philologist, Grimm's Fairy Tales) had a slightly different idea. He reconstructed the original genealogy of the Norse gods as: Tuisto ("twin", meaning twin of Ymir, identical with Búri), father of Mannus (Borr), father of Ingvio (Odin), father of Nerthus (Njord), father of Fravio (Freyr) and Frauja (Freyja). His idea was that Odin was the divine ancestor of the Ingvaeones, Odin's brother Vili (Istro) would have been ancestor of the Istvaeones, and Vé (Irmin) would have been ancestor of the Irminones. So Mannus, the father of mankind, was the ancestor of the three major divisions of the Germanic people. (Teutonic Mythology, 348-49).

You can see how complicated it gets, and none of this is particularly relevant here. It's just background to have in mind whenever someone gets dogmatic. Someone will say "that's not the way I heard it", but behind that statement is several hundred years of experts debating how to resolve the conflicts in the surviving sources.

Private User, I can't wait to see how you react when we get an actual Frost Giant involved in the Discussion. We have at least one signed up as Geni user :)

N.N.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/cb/f8/b9/cbf8b97f461...

Maybe some of the very many members of King Arthur's family can get involved!

It's good to have jobs for the legendary users.

Justin Durand -- thank you for the yammering! Useful, as always.

I don't know a way to get to King Arthur, but I can get you to Nennius (c800).

Nennius says the ancestor of the European tribes is Alanus (=Mannus). His three sons are Neugio (=Ingo), Escio or Hisicion (=Istro), and Armenon (=Irmin). Nennius' story seems to be an earlier and in some ways more detailed version than the version that survives in fragments in Norse material.

Neugio's three sons were Boganus, Vandalus, and Saxo, the ancestors of the Bogari, the Vandals, and the Saxons and Tarincgi.

Hisicion's four sons were Francus, Romanus, Alamanus and Brutus, the ancestors of the Franks, the Latins, the Germans and the Britons.

Armenon's five sons were Gothus, Valagothus (or Balagothus), Cibidus, Burgundus, and Longobardus, the ancestors of the Goths (including the Ostrogoths, Visigoths, Crimean Goths), Valagoths (or Balagoths), Cibidi, Burgundians and Langobards (Lombards).

These three sons and the groupings of their descendants correspond fairly well to three groups of Germanic tribes reported by Tacitus in the 2nd century.

Justin, I think by far the most important fact that your yammering is high lighting is that this is an impossibly complicated issue which Geni is not nearly nuanced enough to do justice to.

I can envision a database very similar to Geni but with an extra layer which would organise all the individual profiles in relationship to each other (including hiding some or adding others) dependant on which source text the user chose to see displayed. Similar to how Geni allows you to swap the parents shown in Tree view if there is a parental conflict except on a vaster scale.

I don't see this option being added to Geni as for 99.9% of profiles it would be completely useless.

The only workable solution that I can see for Geni is the one we already decided on, build the tree based on "the Deluding" and let Justin yammer on in the Discussion tabs. Even being the simplest option it is somewhat over whelming.

It's now 24 hours and several thousand words later but i still have no idea whether to make a separate profile for Hymir!

I have learnt who Nennius is though, so not a complete waste of time :)

Make a separate profile for Hymir. They are not explicitly connected in Snorri's material, and that's what you decided to highlight.